WGDR Interview

Date: 2010_04_09

H = Host (Antonio), M = Mark, A = Aajonus

H: Good morning, this is WGDR in Plainfield. We have a special guest this morning who we're still waiting to call. Oh, here he is. And I'm in the studio with Mark Harmon. And good morning, Mark. We're scrambling here to get things ready and timing has been tricky. Good morning, Aajonus. Is that you?

A: Yes.

H: It's great to have you on with us, Aajonus.

A: Well, thank you, Antonio. How are you today?

H: I'm doing really good. And I have Mark Harmon in the studio with me as well. Good morning, Mark.

A: Mark, hello.

M: Hey, how you been?

A: I'm good.

M: Terrific.

A: It's been about 15 years? Not quite.

M: Yeah, 10, I think. It's great to get a chance to touch base again.

A: Yes, it is. I think about you.

M: I think about you as well as Jackie and Lacy. We'll have to catch up on that.

A: All right. So do you have a farm there?

M: No, I didn't. I didn't get the farm... We started. We did some building. We had a property up close to Canada and we started construction. Did did our research into cheese making and we're headed toward sheep, goats and cows in terms of dairy. But things shifted. Didn't happen. And at this time, I'm doing dentistry in a prison.

A: Oh, you're back to it.

M: I am back to it. Yeah. And it is good. It's phenomenal. It's opened up some great doors and takes me right down a path where you and I would do well to talk. It has to do with, I think, the one subject that perhaps makes it difficult for some people to relate to the kind of food you and I enjoy. And that's the subject of infection and the virulent microorganisms that are out to get us.

A: The thing is, virulent organisms, the virus aren't alive.

M: Granted, I say it when I say sentences like that. I'm absolutely speaking from the public perspective, which I may do again. And that's exactly what I want you to be able to share and address.

A: Good.

H: So, Jim, are you hearing us?

Jim: Yeah, I'm hearing you fine.

A: Did you ask me?

Jim: Not very loud.

M: He's checking in with you.

H: Aajonus did you hear Jim?

A: I can't hear you. No.

Jim: Doesn't matter. I can hear you.

H: OK. So, Jim, you're going to stay in the background silence. So hopefully everybody else can hear. So. Yeah. So we've gotten the phone issues taken care of. And now I just want to go. Yeah. Let people know who our guest is. Aajonus Vonderplanitz is a an author and nutritionist who had some serious health issues as a child and was given, I believe, a six month death sentence by the doctors when at the age of 20 and then went on a search for how to how to heal yourself to to live under the circumstances. And in the first book, We Want to Live, you tell quite a compelling story of the health challenges you had, as well as talking about how you you nursed your son who who was in a car accident and the doctors pretty much said that he was going to die. And so you have quite a story to tell.

A: I have many stories to tell.

H: So perhaps you could just briefly, briefly tell us about that just to give people background. And then we can get into the the the diet that you used, you formulated from that.

A: OK. Well, I was a very sickly child and I would hold colds for anywhere from two to three months at a time. My problems mainly started because I had a very violent brother and he was only 18 months older than I, so still in diapers when I was born, and very jealous that I took mom's attention away in the snap of a finger when I returned home from the hospital with her. So he would push me on rusty nails, rusty rakes, anything that was rusty. My mom's a nurse, so she would take me to the hospital with the doctor and I'd have another tetanus shot. Back in those days, they believed tetanus shot lasted a year. Now they believe five years, but you know, the medical profession changes its mind or the pharmaceutical community any time it needs some extra money or wants extra money. So they change the, you know, the requirements for it. But I was getting a tetanus shot like every three to six months and the mercury, the formaldehyde, the aluminum, the detergent and ether in those went to my brain and caused a form of autism. So I wasn't functioning very well. I lost all ability to communicate. I started getting sicker and sicker as I was treated throughout the years, given more vaccines and I didn't recover from them. So by the time I reached 19 years old, I had ulcer, a perforated ulcer in the stomach and it was a bleeding and they treated that with Maalox, which is, you know, just chalk and liquid chalk, you know, to absorb the acids so the theory is that you destroy all the hydrochloric acid and neutralize it and you won't eat your own stomach lining, a hole in it. But they don't understand that a lot of the vaccine toxicity stores in the stomach lining and if it builds up in a particular spot, it will rupture a hole in it and you can have all the Maalox in the world. So what happened was with the Maalox therapy, I developed a tumor next to the ulcer and that they decided they had to commit surgery on so they gave me a Vigotomy and cut all the vagus nerves to the stomach so I would never secrete hydrochloric acid again in my entire life. So they put me in the category of octogenarians who do not produce hydrochloric acid and would be in danger of death from parasitical, bacterial invasion, even fungal invasion from food. So I was instructed that I would only be able to eat only cooked foods, even apples would have to be steamed or boiled, bananas would have to be steamed, anything I ate would have to be cooked. And then the incision from the surgery turned tumorous so they irradiated that on my stomach and they irradiated that and gave me 10 weeks of intense radiation therapy which cauterized my spine and gave me blood and bone cancer, multiple myeloma. So I was crippled basically at that time.

All the gum around my teeth, I mean all of the bone around my teeth disintegrated so my teeth dangled in my gums and if I bit down on my own teeth without any bone structure, the teeth would bleed. So sometimes I would lose a half a cup of blood at a time. I had up to two transfusions a week, just from bleeding gums. Then they decided because I had the blood and bone cancer, they had to chemotherapy me, even though they told the people who were basically caring for me because I was autistic so I really couldn't communicate too well, that I only had a 1% chance of living but they're going to do chemo anyway. So I took three months of chemo and by the end of that time I was a worm on the floor. If I tried to move any, my back was in excruciating pain and that was the second three-month death diagnosis that they gave me. And one of the volunteers from a hospice, just a young man, 18 years old, volunteered to come into my home because I was autistic. I wasn't going to go into any home, any death home at the hospice and he encouraged me to drink raw milk and raw carrot juice. And if you've ever had chemo and radiation, the amount of radiation that I did, everything you eat after that tastes like postage stamp glue or cardboard. So when I tried the carrot juice and the raw milk, it was delicious. They were delicious. So I drank them not because I understood about health or anything but I drank them because they were the only thing that tasted good. And eventually I started getting better and very gradually over the next few years I didn't die and I got a little bit better. All the gum around my, I mean all the bone around my teeth re-grew within about two and a half years completely but pretty solidly within a year. And I wasn't bleeding anymore. I was eating everything blended when they first started taking care of me. I had a diet like I would eat glazed or powdered donuts blended with RC Cola because everything had to be liquid. It was big thick straws. That's what kind of a diet I was on. I was a terrible eater. Cereals galore that are full of acrylamides and the worst foods in the world you can eat. I ate them.

So gradually I got better and then I started exploring other diets to make me healthier to get through not the diseases I had per se but the actual medical therapies that gave me those diseases. So I had to learn how to detoxify and heal at the same time. So over a 28-year period I experimented and experimented with myself and other people saw how I was improving so they asked me to help them too. So it was a growth process, an experimentation process to get to where I am now 42 years later. So I am 42 years beyond my death sentence.

M: And still going strong.

A: I turn 63 next week.

H: Congratulations. That's pretty impressive. And also I've read in your books that you also had an encounter with a poisonous mushroom which from your description sounds like the white amanita, the death cap, which is considered to be certain death if you eat it.

A: I ate 15 times the amount that normally kills somebody my size.

H: And tell us how you saved yourself. You healed yourself really.

A: It was a difficult thing because I didn't realize that what I did was I knew how to identify mushrooms and amanitas but I ate it out of a lawn on Jekyll Island, Georgia where I was living at the time. My parents had their retirement home there and I just ate it out of a yard and there was no cup at the base of it at the ground line and that's how you identify an amanita. It had been deformed from chemicals on the lawn and I didn't realize that at the time. So I picked this huge amanita that must have been three inches in diameter and ate it on my way to walk on the beach. And I got violently sick. I went into cramps that would last for 20 minutes at a time. Every muscle in my body except for my heart cramped. So I was in excruciating pain for about 20 minutes, would pass out, go unconscious and then wake up 20 minutes later and then have time to eat. So I ate a tremendous amount of butter. Now they say that the amanita, how it destroys you is it destroys the liver. Well I knew that I had to have tremendous amounts of fat in my body to protect the liver because the liver isn't really fatty. The liver is like the heart. It's mainly protein. So I needed to inundate my body and my liver with the butter. So I had lots of butter, ate raw fish and the honey was basically my diet to alleviate some of the pain. Of course I had high potassium food to help relieve the lactic acid that causes muscle cramps normally. So I had banana and butter together to help, to act as a pain nullifier. And gradually I got better. It took me a good 11 years to completely recover from it. And it took me 12 and a half years to completely recover from the doctor's damage that created the cancers with me 14 years before that. So it was an adventure getting well. But I learned a tremendous amount by going through that and basically I guess that was the plan.

H: So tell us about the diet that you gradually developed.

A: Well I found that the human body, everybody tells you and I was a vegetarian, raw food vegetarian, fruitarian, vegetarian for six and a half years of those years that I studied nutrition. I believe the idea that we were frugivores rather than carnivores because of some very, you know, limited perspective toward the human body and the idea that you want to make it sound like we are really vegetarians when we're not. If you consider that we only have one alkalinizing enzyme in our mouth, ptyalin, but predominantly bacteria. We have more bacteria for animal food consumption than dogs and cats in the mouth. And that's where digestion begins. And then we dump into the stomach and it's acidic. We have acidic bacteria, the hydrochloric acid. That's not meant for, you know, fruits and vegetables. It's meant for meats and dairy to break animal products down. Highly acidic. Then we pass on down into the lower part of the stomach and we have bile. Bile that's not meant for oils, pressed oils or oils from vegetation or fruit. It's meant for meat and dairy. Again, animal products. If you take the type of bile that we produce and secrete into the duodenum and the intestines, all throughout the intestines, at least the small intestines, you'll see that that bile is very congruous with animal products rather than vegetation and fruits. And then as we pass into the intestinal tract, what do we find? We find the hydrochloric acid is still produced throughout. So we have as much, we produce as much hydrochloric as a dog and cat do, but we do it gradually rather than the inundation that they have in the stomach. All of the bacteria, or I should say 90% of the intestinal bacteria, is for animal products. And only 10% for anything else and that's maybe only because we have developed those by forcing our bodies to eat grains and vegetables and fruits. So 90% of the bacteria in the intestines and the acids in the intestines are there for animal products. And then we pass into the colon and we have the same, we find the same thing. The E. coli that's present there is for animal products rather than other products. And all of the bacteria, the other bacteria that assist E. coli are very important there and there for animal products. So it took me so many years to open my eyes to that and then I began, because of the poison mushroom, I began eating raw meat a lot, you know, like twice daily and to improve my health faster. Because within a year and a half after having the poison mushroom, I still wasn't making fast progress toward better health. And that's how I got to where I am. Eating, I eat about two meat meals a day unless I'm getting heavy sunshine in a tropical climate. The sun helps a lot so you don't need quite as much meat, but dairy of course and coconut that digests okay if you receive a lot of sunshine. So I can reduce the meat meals to one in an environment like that. And I eat some vegetable juices rather than vegetables to alkalinize the system from all the toxicity that has accumulated over, you know, the 22 years that I was eating nothing but garbage. And I mean heavily processed garbage. The worst foods that you can eat are highest in acrylamides according to Columbia and some other universities. Acrylamides cause more cancer than any other food.

H: What are acrylamides?

A: Acrylamides are sugars, sugar from sugar products, high carbohydrate products. And if you cook them, they increase. If you fry them, they sometimes increase fivefold the amount of acrylamides. So all chips, french fries, donuts, cereals, all of the worst foods in the world.

H: All of America's favorite foods.

A: Yes.

H: By the way, this is WGDR in Plainfield. We're also streaming on the internet at www.wgdr.org. So we've been brought up to look at humans as omnivores. And you're saying that our digestive system is set up primarily to digest protein.

A: Yes.

H: So...

A: Proteins and fats, all from animal sources.

H: So how...

M: And raw at that.

A: Yes, raw.

H: Well, why raw?

A: Well, all animals in nature only eat raw foods. No other animal goes around cooking. And no other animal has diseases like humans unless they're domesticated or their particular feeding grounds are poisoned with chemicals, you know, like industrial waste, aerial sprays like the government has tested biochemical warfare on deer and other creatures in the wild and given them mad deer disease, mad cow disease, stuff like this. And those are documented cases started way back in the early 50s and all the way through even the 90s. So unless an animal's territory is encroached upon and poisoned, they don't have diseases when they eat raw food. Now, Dr. Pottenger and Howell have done experiments with various animals and found that when they fed them cooked and processed foods, they had diseases. When they fed them cooked foods, of course, the diseases were mild, but they were diseases nevertheless and they shortened life. When they processed the foods, like all foods are done now, all processed and heavily cooked and heavily heated, they developed the severest diseases and the worst diseases came from powdered milk. Powdered milk was the worst. Every disease that they got was about somewhere around, I can't remember, it was around 111 diseases and all of them were chronic from having just powdered milk and water.

M: Another difference between animals and humans.

A: So we're really meant, every animal on this earth is meant to eat raw food, millions and millions of years. Now, when you're a carnivore, like a human carnivore, and you're eating, and there are tribes that do that, they come upon a decaying carcass and they'll eat it. They don't worry about the bacteria and they like the bacteria because the bacteria is a major part of digestion. Eighty to ninety percent of digestion is bacterial. So, if the bacteria is already breaking down this rotting meat, that's the thing to eat. But when people try to become civilized and lived in close quarters, if you have that stinky meat around, it causes odors throughout and you have lots of rodents and everybody else wants to share in the rotten meat. So, not that the rodents cause disease, but sometimes they would bite humans because they would have the decaying meat on their faces or on their hands and those creatures sometimes bit humans. And then you had to live with all that stench, so they got into cooking. And there were times where there were forest fires and things got burnt and then humans were eating those burnt dead carcasses. And sometimes, somehow, they got into doing it as a major process.

M: If it stinks, my cats won't eat it.

A: Pardon?

M: I said if it stinks, my cats won't eat it.

A: Well, cats usually like fresh.

M: That's why they bite me.

H: Your cats bite you? Well, my dog actually likes his raw meat rotted and the stinkier the better.

A: Yep, that's what dogs like.

M: Kind of like cheese.

A: I have found some cats that like it, but very few, most cats like very fresh food.

H: Now, Aajonus, a lot of people think that human beings are not like animals and therefore cannot be compared with animals in terms of eating raw meat. Sure, animals can handle raw meat, but that's not for humans.

A: Well, we are animals biologically. We're animals and we're in that category and everything that exists in our body is similar to other animals. In fact, we're most like the pig. But the pig is a better omnivore than we because they have more array of enzymes, I mean, bacterias and enzymes than we do.

M: There's another distinct difference between animals and people, which could also, well, frankly, I consider to be a core matter and that is I'm not aware of any animals that are plagued by opinions.

A: [laughs] That is a disease.

M: There's no doubt about it in my mind. That's my opinion, at least.

A: Yes.

H: And I think to go even further on the tangent that Laurie Anderson said that language is a virus. Anyway, that that could be a jumping off point into the realm of viruses because you have an interesting and controversial perspective on viruses.

A: Well, you know, 30 years ago, viruses, everybody knew, all doctors were taught viruses are not alive. What you find is waste proteins from certain kinds of animal tissue. And that's what it is. It's just waste product from a dissolution of dead cells that does not come from a bacteria, a parasite, or a fungal degeneration of organic tissue. It is like a solvent, a soap, that goes in and dissolves it and then we have these waste products. And to separate them from the bacterial, parasitical, and fungal waste, they were identified as virus. Now, it was known that virus are not alive, so it was not a, it was known not to advise any kind of antibiotics because there was nothing alive in it. Well, 30 years ago, the pharmaceutical industry says, yeah, but we've got a fear tactic here. We can sell a lot more antibiotics if we say we can use antibiotics for virus. So the whole thing changed overnight. A lot of doctors didn't accept it, but with 30 years of brainwashing through TV and the media, the pharmaceutical has changed everybody to believe that antibiotics are effective with virus. And it's just nonsense.

M: On that, go back, if you could, to an opening comment. You also said bacteria aren't alive.

A: Oh, I'm, well, bacteria are alive. Bacteria, parasites, and fungus are alive.

M: Right, because I had made the comment virulent bacteria.

A: Yes, well, there's no such thing as virulent because virus are not alive. So, you're crossing two categories. You're telling us that bacteria is a virus, is viral in nature, and there's no such thing as viral bacteria.

M: So, merrily, you're saying virus is a waste product.

A: Yes, waste product, yes, solvent with waste product. Well, the waste product of a virus, if you're going to categorize a virus, you have to say what you're identifying as virus is waste product. You have different kinds of elements that fractionate cells like enzymes do. So, you've got a solvent that breaks down animal tissue that is too toxic to be consumed by the living organisms that are janitors.

H: So in other words, viruses are tools that are created by the actual environment where a certain kind of cleansing or breaking down of toxic material is necessary to maintain the homeostasis of the physical organism.

A: Correct, when the bacteria, parasites, and fungus can't do it for us because those are too toxic, the tissue is so toxic that it would kill those organisms.

H: So, these viruses are actually specialized...

A: So, solvents produced by cells.

H: In order to break down materials that are too toxic for anything else to handle.

A: Correct.

H: Huh, interesting.

A: That's why we used to have colds and flus were, you know, a rare issue unless you're at coal mines, nuclear plants where you've got so much toxicity, the bacteria can't help clean you when colds clean the body. So now, most people get flus rather than colds. Colds are mainly bacterial, flus are mainly viral.

H: So, I'm thinking, what is the purpose of vegetables and seeds and other foods that we have available to us?

A: Well, they are for other animals. Seeds are predominantly for the birds, that was a pun, and no laughs.

H: I laughed, I got it.

A: But seeds and grains are mainly for the birds and, you know, squirrels and chipmunks and things like that. But, you know, the chipmunks will eat lots of bugs and insects as well as a little bit of grain, but there are animals out there who just live on those products. And you don't see the cow going around and eating, you know, carcasses, but you do see them going around and eating some dead flesh, but not as a main diet. Very little do they eat, and they do eat insects. At least I observed them on my grandparents' farm.

M: And they do drink milk?

A: Pardon?

M: And they do drink milk?

A: Absolutely. In fact, most animals drink milk as their start in life. And that's an animal product. But then their stomachs change over and produce many more enzymes to digest vegetation. And the bacteria that's propagated in their intestinal tracts is mainly to digest vegetation. Ours does not.

H: But to get back to dairy and milk, in nature, that's a food for animals and human beings early in life.

A: Yes.

H: Why should we continue to eat and consume those products as we get older?

A: Well, you know, it is probably enslavement of certain animals to produce their milk, but just because it's mainly meant for the youth does not mean that it doesn't work as a good food, especially when you're in a tribal environment and you want to have huge tribes. It is an incredible substance that is readily digestible, easily digestible by everybody when it's raw.

H: Well, actually, I've come across some people that are allergic to it, even raw.

A: No. Chemically, I've tested them, and there's no way that they're allergic to it. What they have is, like I said in one of my books, you have casein and lactate from the pasteurized dairy products that were consumed over your life. And when you drink the raw milk, for some reason, it has a propensity to detox its own substance out of the body. So like I said, if you have four ounces a day every day for three months and do that gradually, you know, extracting those old products out of the body, to which you have a real allergy to them, because they were still processed when they went into the body, and they're processed when you start detoxifying, you get an allergic reaction. And there's not one person out of about probably 80 people that I've taken through their so-called allergies to even raw milk. Not one of them didn't succeed in that three-month period in being able to handle all dairy without allergies as long as it was raw.

M: Is there a difference between allergy and detox?

A: No, because when you're eating a product to which the body has a reaction, and that isn't good for it, it will try to detoxify it, a vomit, diarrhea, nausea. All of that is detoxification, so no, there is no difference really.

M: So a lot of what people call allergy and what you see on the skin is a histamine-type response.

A: And that's all the body detoxifying.

M: And it's the body detoxifying.

Caller: Can I come into your conversation?

H: Go ahead.

Caller: Okay. Can you hear me all right then?

A: I can hear you very well.

Caller: Okay, great. I'm your age exactly. I was a 60 child myself. I was condemned to death with leukemia when I was 18. But a little over 40 years ago, I became a vegetarian. I live a highly physical life. I do hard labor. I work with big, heavy stones. I work all winter outdoors pruning fruit trees and stuff like that. I cannot digest milk. I can drink it, raw or unraw, and it will just give me diarrhea. And I find that I'm very glad that you were able to heal yourself, and I'm convinced that your diet works for you, but I'm also convinced that different people adjust to different food supplies, and that to make this kind of above-all commitment to one diet is a little bit misguided, I would say. And also, you make comments of the type that animals only eat raw food. Well, yeah, animals don't drink the milk of other animals, so I don't know. You kind of rationalize your diet and make it one thing for all, and I'd like you to address that question.

A: I would love to.

Caller: Okay. Thank you.

A: Thank you. Those are good questions. Those are excellent questions. Now, I found only eight people who could eat a vegetarian diet and be healthy doing that out of the probably 2,600 that I've met and interviewed and watched over the years. Those eight individuals who did very well for almost a lifetime, up until their 70s, on a vegetarian diet, were high-energy people who had very high levels of adrenaline and testosterone and thyroxine, thyroid hormones, very high levels. So they were able to produce all of these hormones to give the health or the vitality to be able to perform such great activities. There are a few athletes that are vegetarians that fall into that category, and certainly they do very, very well. But I have found that they are a tiny percentage, because you figure, I mean, I haven't met every vegetarian in the world, but out of the 2,600, only eight did well, and only one of them was a woman, and she did well until she was 34 years old, and then she started getting osteoporosis. One of the gentlemen that ate started spinal deterioration at 74, and he was a committed hygienist, raw food, fruitarian, vegetarian, and after a year of suffering incredible pain from that spinal degeneration, he started eating raw meat and raw dairy, and within a year he was fine, and then went back on to his vegetarian diet. So I address that way, that it is not the norm that I found, but it is a fact that there are some people who can do it, but most of us can't.

The addressing of the dairy, sure you can theoretically say, yeah, animals don't eat it beyond their maturation, or you know, some human tribes feed their children up to seven years old dairy from the mother, actually, you know, children who are suckling at seven years old. Most of them will cut it off about four years old, because the woman doesn't want to spend her life nursing, you know, so many children, and that's her entire activity. And if you take a look at the tribes that eat milk, they do excellently. The Fulani tribe eat 90% raw milk, and they did very well until they started agriculture and started introducing other foods into their diets. They did eat 10% cooked meat, and it was cooked in very low heat in ground ovens. They were stocky, shorter tribes, people. And then we have the Samburu and Maasai tribes, who have absolutely no disease whatsoever, and they live proportionally, just a little bit different on the ratio of raw meat to raw milk. The Maasai have a little bit more raw meat in their diet, probably about 25 to 30%, and the Samburu have a little bit less meat, raw meats, to dairy. And the Maasai tribe, who eats their ratio, are the tallest, strongest, fiercest, and smartest tribe in the world, up until this nine-year drought that they've suffered. That's decimated their tribes, and now they're accepting care packages of dried powdered milk and cereals, so they're really breaking down pretty quickly. But when they were on their natural diet of raw meat and raw dairy in those proportions, they were the healthiest. The Eskimos don't get dairy. They just live entirely on meats, except during the two and a half months of their summer, where they'll get berries and some fruits, but mainly just berries. It's very, very little, and they live entirely on meats. They live, even under their strenuous conditions, they live up to 110, 111 years old. And do very, very well on just nothing but those raw meats. They had no cancer until 1934, I believe it was, or 34 or 36, and that was among the Eskimos who were living in the German and British colonies, and had been for at least 50 years eating the sugars and breads. And they didn't have any dental caries until later, and those were the ones that also lived in the colonies. So you take a look at those, and you say, well, okay, dairy's okay. It's good. It's a good body building, body extending, life extending, and the Maasai and the Samburu live up to 140 some years old.

I met a tribe last year, about a year and two months ago, in the Philippines, a very remote island. There are 7,107 islands in the Philippines, and it was a three-day journey to get there by four-wheel drive, then by boat, and then by swimming. So it was quite a journey to get there, and this remote tribe, these people were living up to 150 years old, and they lived on three foods only. Only three foods, shoots the heck out of the USDA's pyramid, and that pyramid is there structured to help all their farm, you know, big industry, food industry friends with cereals and stuff. But this tribe, they ate raw fish every day. They had raw pork once in a while, they'd kill a raw pig in the forest, and they ate coconut meat, mature coconut meat, and a mango or a banana several times a week, but not every day. So they mainly lived on their fish and coconut meat. They would eat about a coconut of, you know, one coconut flesh a day, daily. Sometimes the women didn't eat quite that much, and these people, I, you know, most of them that I got to speak with interpreters, and we had to have three interpreters, one taking it from English to Tagalog to the native language, and I got to speak mainly with one that was about 82 years old, and he had perfect teeth, big, white, beautiful teeth, not a cavity in it, not a deformity on his body, and he looked like he was no more than 40, let's say early 40s, 80 years old.

M: I will tell you, Agnes, that I've seen more healing of teeth in the prison population I've been treating than in the general public, and the prison population is not getting much of a diet, but certainly there is some drastic changes to their life just within incarceration.

A: And did they grow their own food?

M: Of course not.

A: Well, I, you know, I visited some prisons in Georgia and California who grew their own food and had their own dairy, they make their own butter, and these were quite healthy people who had their own gardens and their own animals.

M: I want to go back to the original comment I made to you, and that was that what I find keeps most people from being comfortable eating raw meat is fear of infection. And I presume that you would go in the direction of saying no one dies of infection, they die of detoxing more than perhaps, that overwhelms their life force.

A: Yeah, but there's very few people, let's say 5% die, you know, from the detoxification, but most of the time people die from medical treatments. You know, the body is 99% bacteria, and you can check with any microbiologist and they will tell you the body is 99% bacterial. So this whole bacteria theory is nonsense.

M: But there is bacteria with imbalance, and bacteria which is out of balance. There is an issue of the environment.

A: Well, I don't think there is any imbalance, I think the body is always trying to get well, so of course it will propagate more of the janitorial bacteria at those times, and of course it can be overwhelming, let's say somebody gets poisoned. The amount of damage that's done, the amount of basic organic cells that are dissolved and damaged and have to be cleaned may be higher than, much, much higher, vastly greater than normal. So there's going to be weakness, there's going to be, you know, pain, there's going to be all kinds of results from that massive cleansing, but it is the body's balance trying to rebalance itself to get well, following a mass destruction from poisoning.

M: I would agree with you that today it's hard to find people who aren't getting medical treatment, but we have historical records, however accurate that may or may not be, of many people who have not had medical treatment and were deemed to have cause of death infection as in plague.

A: Well, you know, you have to look at the sources of that information, you also have to look at how the people were living. Now before 1300s, the early 1300s, people used wood to cook with in their homes with no ventilation and the toxicity produced by those monoxides would create, you know, conditions where they would have colds frequently. They didn't have central heating, they didn't have central air conditioning, so at times of the year they could get overwhelmed from the toxicity distorted in their bodies. The bacteria after the 1300s, about 1310, the Windsor family, the King and Queen of England decided to start selling coal. When within, you know, 200 years we have the Black Plague, mainly created by degeneration of the lungs, not from rats, and rats got the rap, it was the King and the Queen of England selling their mercury-laden and thallium-laden coal that was being burned in the homes to not only cook with, to heat with, without proper ventilation.

M: Again in that consideration, though, that was not an issue of dying of medical treatment.

A: No, no, it was, well, yes, there were medical people there, bloodletting, doing all kinds of things that were killing a lot of people.

M: But the bulk of them were perhaps dying because their systems could not handle the level of detoxification that was going on?

A: Absolutely. Well, not necessarily the level of detoxification, the level of contamination that entered the body that was the straw that broke the person's back.

M: The body is going to try to store it, and the body is going to try to store toxins in the fat.

A: Well, if it doesn't have fat, where does it go? Into the cells. And it was difficult to be fat in those days when you were living in London and Paris and all those places, unless you had a lot of money, and most people were peasants.

M: Wherever the toxin goes, the body finds a way to achieve some stability with it that one continues, oblivious that there may be a potential time bomb, so to speak, going on within their environment.

A: Absolutely.

M: And what seems to trigger off that time bomb, what seems to, I'm asking your opinion here, would be a breakdown or digestion of those toxic elements by the world's famous digestive elements, bacteria and other microorganisms.

A: Well, that's if those poisons are stored in the digestive area. If they're stored in the heart, I've seen quite a few people who are incredibly healthy and athletes, and all of a sudden, because of the toxins stored around and in the heart, they had a heart attack and died, yet the rest of their system was very, you know, healthy. I've also seen people with lymphatic systems that were completely congested, yet the rest of their bodies were incredibly healthy, but the lymphatic system cleans every part of the body, and if you stop cleaning the body, it shuts down.

M: As far as I can see, toxins can end up anywhere in the body.

A: Absolutely.

M: Furthermore, as far as what's part of the digestive system, would you not consider the mouth part of the digestive system?

A: Absolutely.

M: So you would agree that cavities are digestion?

A: Not necessarily, because in my latest research in the last 10 years, I found that the discharge from the gums contains heavy metals that are normally found in the brain. So, you know, the brain uses metallic minerals to conduct electricity and transfer light, and that's how the nervous system works, the brain works. So in observing those compounds and studying them, I found that, you know, we have all those vaccines, cooked foods, releases, all of the trace metals that are normally productive toward, you know, brain activity become toxic free radicals. So when the brain detoxifies, it mainly does it out the salivary glands, the gums, and the tongue, and the body will use calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium, although mainly in cooked form because of our diets, to bind with those heavy metals, which is plaque on the teeth. And because most people eat cooked food, mainly cooked foods, the alkalinizing ability and the neutralizing ability of even a mass amount of calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium in the plaque on the teeth does not arrest the tremendous acidity and caustic nature of the free radical metals like mercury, and thallium, and cobalt, barium, things like that, when they will eat right through those within a few days and start damaging the dentine.

M: I'm sorry, they will start eating right through that? The heavy metals will start eating right through?

A: Break down the cooked alkali, the cauterized alkalinizing minerals, even though the proportion of calcium, magnesium, phosphorus may be 50 to 100 to 1. That's how caustic mercury is. So eat into to the dentine. If you take a look at Alberta University in Canada, their research with neurons and mercury and 2% solution of thimerosal, which is liquid mercury, the content that they have in vaccines, 2%. It will completely dissolve and destroy months and years of development of neurons in seconds. That's how caustic mercury is and thallium is. So when those are arrested by the cauterized, normally very alkalinizing minerals, they are not operative enough to neutralize those poisons, those free radical minerals, those metals that eat into the dentine. Then the bacteria responds by trying to break down that toxic dentine and arrest it, but yet the medical professions, especially the dental community, points to the bacteria and say, oh, well, there's bacteria in this cavity, so the bacteria created the problem. But they're the janitors, they're in there cleaning up, they didn't create the problem.

M: Well, again, I don't know that I heard a disagreement on what I was saying. I got to admit to you, I did not follow all aspects of the metal discussion as you were giving it to me. I did reflect in my thinking as you were speaking, amidst some of what you were saying that cavities are one of the oldest diseases known to man, and it does predate serums and metal toxicities in the body as far as so-called anthropologic studies of old skulls and teeth would be concerned. All I was saying is, and in agreement with you, that the industry so often points to the visible signs, points to the effects, because they haven't been able to broaden the vision to see wider than that, but that as just a general direction to broaden the perspective beyond bacteria, that a breakdown of tooth structure is an aspect of digestion where the body is needing to balance out an imbalance.

A: Well, absolutely, it can be partially that too, but you have to understand our saliva isn't high in acids, it's high in bacteria. So we can't necessarily blame the digestive process for dental decay, and we see in all tribes that eat cooked foods, when you take those trace metals and you cook them and make them into free radicals, all you need to do is cook to get cavities. Now all the tribes in the world don't have cavities that eat raw foods, or eat raw meat and raw dairy as their predominant diet. Those tribes who do eat cooked foods, and it seems the more they cook, like the aboriginals in New Guinea like all their meat very burned, and they have a massive amount of dental caries. The Asians that I see, because their diet is predominantly 80% rice, have massive decay in their teeth by the age of, you know, teens. And I see these older people have practically no teeth or all black teeth and 90% rotted from eating all this grain that we don't digest well, you know, especially cooked, because you're not going to digest much of it at all if it is cooked. But to have to cook something to make it a staple food is not necessarily a good thing, and it certainly isn't a good thing, if it creates very short lives and a tremendous amount of decaying teeth and bones.

M: The onset of cooking was to prolong the life of meat, and today the cooking is deemed necessary to avoid bacterial contamination, again, backwards from the perspective you're offering, yet the cooking will denature and alter the composition of the food, giving the body a whole different task in terms of how it's going to...

A: Yes, it gives a whole different task, but you take a look at all those people who have gone from eating cooked meat to raw meat, they say, oh my God, digestion is so easy.

H: And I can attest to that myself.

M: As I can.

H: Very clearly. I want to...

A: And even the rotten meat is the most easily digestible and makes people happy.

M: You like rotten meat.

A: Pardon?

M: You do like rotten meat, yes?

A: Well, I like it as a medicine, definitely. I don't enjoy it because I didn't grow up with the smell of decaying flesh being appetizing.

M: Now, I just pointed out for those listening, that's one of the things that you did startle me with when we first met, was that you told me, just because that was getting older and smelled bad, don't waste it. It's not necessarily a bad food. You had no hesitation with it, saying that my body will make use of what it wants and get rid of the rest. And if I have some detox that needs to happen, it'll happen. If there is no detox to happen...

H: And I'll attest to that as well. There are times when I've eaten meats and dairy that were... Well, dairy in particular, that was very stinky to the point where I had to camouflage it with some honey and some fruit, and I would have diarrhea as a result. But it only lasted maybe at the most a few hours, maybe a whole day in a really radical situation. And I have gotten to eating meat that has sat around long enough to start smelling. I don't let it go to the point where it's really foul. I let my dog enjoy that.

M: I've eaten foul without any consequence.

H: He is a lucky dog, but we don't call him lucky. So I wanted to bring the conversation back around to the diet, because in our current environment there are a lot of toxins, a lot of metals, heavy metals, and pollution in our environment, in our foods, in our water. And what is it in the diet that can help protect us from that? Because even under the best of circumstances, we're still taking in these pollutants into our body.

A: Well, I find that majorly to control toxicity is fats. Now, we will find the greatest concentration of poison is always in the fat, in the bone marrow, in the brain, the brain is 60 to 80 percent fat. The bone marrow is 60 to 80 percent fat. And we'll find the greatest concentration of poisons in fat, whether it's suet around the kidneys or no matter where it is. And I found, to give an example, I met a guy who came to me for a consult and I could see by the skin, now the body discards about 90, it's supposed to discard 90 percent of its toxins through the skin. So I could see by his skin, it was very thick and very hard and lumpy, that he had had many years of alcoholism and drug use. And I figured 20, 25 years. He was only about, let's say, 15, 20 pounds overweight. And then when I took the photographs of his iris and saw his insides, they were very clean and very young. And I said, are you from this planet? He said, of course. And I said, well, this doesn't make sense to me. You're only, you know, a few pounds overweight. I can see that you've abused your body with alcohol and drugs tremendously and it doesn't make sense because only fat can protect you and do that, unless you're an unusual species. He said, well, before I went on your diet three months ago, I was 300 pounds and he'd been that way all of his life. So even toxic fat will protect the body. Not in all circumstances, but in most that I've seen, fat people are healthier. And the old adage, you know, fat and happy.

H: So it's fat. Because it's protection.

A: It's the most important neutralizer of toxicity that there is. Butter is far the greatest, the easiest to digest and more utilizable.

M: What is your current source of butter?

A: I get it from an Amish farm.

M: Is it raw?

A: Pardon?

M: Is it raw?

A: Oh, raw, unfrozen. Absolutely. No salt.

H: And I want to ask you, I could get butter from that same source, but I can get raw cream up here, much easier from local people. And can I get as much benefit from the raw cream as I could from the butter?

A: Well, as I said in my books, no. Raw cream is very difficult to digest. It contains, it requires more enzymes, about a third more enzymes to digest than butter. So butter is very easy on the liver. The liver only has to make about 30 varieties of bile to digest butter. When you have cream, it's about 60 varieties of bile to be able to digest cream thoroughly. Cream is the only fat that I've found that will protect and correct nerve damage. So of course, cream is a big part of the diet, but not a high amount of the diet, high ratio of the diet. Butter is the main.

M: We're coming up to spring. Would you particularly covet the butter that you would get from the first clippings of grass?

A: Well, I get butter all year round. I eat butter year round, so I get it from all phases.

M: So you're not particularly compelled by Price's feelings about the-

A: Well, Price was a theorist and he never lived with the tribe long enough to really be making the conclusions that he draws. Although I agree with most of them, even though he doesn't have the scientific evidence to prove it, I agree with most of it. I don't agree with the X factor and all that because I've seen people on this diet use the X factor butter and have no better improvement. However, people eating lots of cooked foods, they eat the X factor, and of course they're going to improve greatly and massively, but I doubt any more progressively than just the whole butter. That's the only difference. And plus, I don't agree with Sally Fallon and the other people that say freezing is not cooking and freezing is healthy and destroying bacteria and parasites by freezing is a good thing because I found in my animal experiments when I fed sickly animals, well, what I did first was I took frozen meat and then raw meat of the same meat from the same creature and froze half of it and kept the other raw, completely raw, no freezing and no cooking. So I fed a group of animals this meat. All of the animals that ate the frozen meat got a skin disorder within six weeks. One of them had mange from it. The other animals who ate it unfrozen and raw had absolutely no disease and no discomfort. None. So then I decided, well, I know how butter heals skin disorders very quickly. So I took half the butter, the same batch, from the same tank and froze half of it and fed that to half of the sick animals and then the unfrozen butter to the other half of those sick animals and the ones who got the frozen butter took five times longer to reverse and heal their skin disorders than those who got it unfrozen.

M: Would you then further say under no circumstances would you eat a frozen meat?

A: Absolutely I would if I were starving.

M: And you would choose it over a cooked meat?

A: Oh, absolutely. Because it still has benefit, but the benefits are reduced.

M: You might let it age a little bit outside of the freezer first.

A: Oh, yes. Definitely. Get the bacteria going.

H: Okay, I want to ask you about, do you find that there's much difference between eating ground beef and unground beef?

A: Well, yes. You have 10 to 20 percent of activity like hydrochloric acid that breaks down the larger particles of food into smaller molecules so that the bacteria can feed on it readily. The higher the hydrochloric acid, the more you can break down foods without as much chewing. And most primitive tribes have plenty of hydrochloric acid. We don't in our society, so people have to chew more. I have no hydrochloric in my stomach because of the vagotomy that was performed on me at 20 years old. So I like to chew, I take my meat and if I'm eating it, I will hold it in my hand and tear it into tiny, tiny little pieces before I swallow. Or I will grind it in a food processor and make ground meats. And that's, I would say, 90 percent of what I eat is chopped finely or ground because of my situation. Not that other people have to do it, but of course, you will digest more the more that is available for the bacteria to penetrate.

H: Do you have any problem with purchasing already ground meat?

A: I do if you just buy it right off the shelf because they use high pressure grinders and they put it through about three times. So often it homogenizes the fat, which means it breaks the fat molecules open. And then they will absorb the proteins and other substances, which causes more detoxification and using the meats on fuel like pyruvate and fat, acetates, rather than building blocks.

M: And what about the value of raw poultry and raw fish?

A: Well, I find that they are all good. The poultry and fish I see have a greater propensity toward, you know, the bones, the connective tissue, the skin. The fish, especially oysters, have a propensity toward nutrifying and cleansing the brain and nervous system. So I find that they are all beneficial. If you are completely healthy, you don't need to worry about which one you are eating because the body can make the same nutrients out of anything. But when you are a sick animal and a sick human animal, you need specific... I find that specific proteins, specific meats are more helpful in certain conditions.

M: You also, when you read the eyes, you note mold, individuals having more mold in their body, and this gets your attention. You want to discuss that?

A: Well, mold is a way of digesting. We do have molds that digest, and we have molds that break down toxic substances and tissues, especially in cold areas of the body. When you reach cold temperatures, bacteria cannot function very well, and parasites usually can't be found in very cold environments. So molds grow in those areas of the body, like deep into the bones and the bone marrow, and some organs that are being shut down because of circulation, you'll have fungus that grow to degenerate and break down the toxicity.

M: Maybe I'm specifically referring to your reading the upper part of the iris as getting foggy, referring to that as mold on the brain, and probably the consequence of antibiotics.

A: Well, no. When it's a yellowish color, it's usually penicillin.

M: Well, it was more that the iris fades off into the white, and there isn't a distinct boundary at the top part of the iris?

A: Yes, but I do find a lot of molds there, but if it's green, it could be tetracycline molds or similar molds from similar antibiotics. The penicillin fungus is a bird fungus. It doesn't belong in us, but since we eat grains and it's injected into us, we can breed penicillin once injected into us for a lifetime without ever shutting down because they sterilize the penicillin before it's injected into us, which damages the RNA, which tells it to go into hibernation and go through cycles. So it has no cycles. It will constantly feed on tissue that is grown on grains.

M: I thought you were also saying that there tends to be, at times, the body storing that in the cranium, in the brain area, and that it just ends up sitting there.

A: Well, it just doesn't sit there. It's always active.

M: I mean to say the body isn't able to detoxify it as readily as it would if it were in other areas, and probably affects us.

A: Well, if your body is mainly, let's say I was a big grain eater, you know, I maybe had meat at lunch and dinner time, but my predominant diet was cereal and donuts and chips and french fries and things like that. So a lot of my cells were constructed from grain product. So those cells would be, you know, food for the janitorial results or the effects of penicillin. And I still have two yellow spots in my brain. I have no more... My body used to be covered with the penicillin fungus because I had so much penicillin. But over all these years, from 1972 on raw foods, I've been able to eliminate all of it except two very large spots in my brain.

H: We have a caller who would like to ask a question.

Jim: Yeah. Hi. This is Jim. I run the WeWantNumeral2Live.com site. You know, in all this talk about the meat and the milk and all that, we haven't approached upon juice and to me, I much prefer the meat meals and the milkshakes and all that. And for me, drinking the juice, unless it's really fresh, it just draws me in. I have a hard time drinking the juice, but my blood tends to be thick. I get cramps sometimes, my mouth is dry a lot sometimes. And you know, what would you suggest to get me enthused about juice?

A: Yes, I couldn't hear a word he said.

H: Okay, he's having trouble with the juice part of the diet. He has a hard time getting himself to do the juicing and he's wondering what can he do to make it easier for him to enjoy doing the juicing part or to inspire him to do it.

A: Well, you know, most people wake in the morning and they've got lethargy. They don't have, because the brain and nervous system detox during the night. As soon as the sun goes down, the brain and nervous begins to detoxify. Why? About midnight, between midnight and two o'clock, it peaks and then it starts gradually decreasing by five o'clock in the morning. As soon as the sun breaks, then the nervous system starts detoxifying. Because we have so many heavy metals from our food and from pollution, from cooking it, from cooking the food, we are highly acidic in the morning and a lot of the fats have been arrested to handle these. So we have very low energy in the morning normally and we're highly acidic. So the brain and the nervous system won't work very well without a charge nor will the digestive tract work without a charge. So most people get up and they have to deal with their lethargy. They have some kind of stimulant, coffee, caffeine, nicotine, something like that, the caffeine and soda pop and all the other garbage that causes inordinate boosts of adrenaline from basically poisoning the system. They have that stimulation. If you want to have a healthy stimulation with an inundation of enzymes and vitamins and minerals, then you have the vegetable juice. That also usually makes the whole digestive tract work better and the flavor of everything is increased because you don't have all those acidic compounds that are floating in the blood, the neurologic fluid and the lymphatic system. But the lymphatic system we usually don't taste anyway, but neurological fluids and blood we do as they pass through the digestive tract, especially the mouth. So there are many reasons to have the juice. I would say at least one a day in the morning is the most important for most people. If somebody may be so sick, I don't advise the juice until later in the day because it would interfere. It will over alkalinize their intestines that are over alkalinized already, especially vegetarians and when they go on to the diet.

M: But again, if you're feeling fatigued, your direction will probably be to make some fresh juice.

A: Not necessarily fatigued, but just feeling out of balance, out of sorts, overly acidic.

M: Thoughts aren't flowing?

A: Yeah, things just aren't flowing because there's not enough digestive juices. There's not enough minerals to neutralize acidity in the blood and in the neurological system. There's an overall malaise that comes from that. If you don't wake up bright and perky, you need juice.

H: Well on that note, we have to juice our way forward.

M: We have to juice our way forward.

H: The next show is coming up in literally one minute. So it's been a pleasure to have you on, Aajonus.

A: Thank you, Antonio.

H: Maybe we can do this again because we had a lot of questions and I really didn't get to any of them hardly.

A: Well, you wanted to know background. So the next time we can just deal with questions.

H: Exactly.

M: Maybe you can hang on the line as we go off the air, Aajonus.

H: Yeah, you can stay on the line and I want to thank everyone for listening.